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 Kindred 3: Time Concerns

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ravenscream

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PostSubject: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:44 am

Hi organisers of K3!

I was just thinking about the time duration for each match. Each round is given 90 minutes to complete, including deployment. This is a marked difference from previous tournaments I've been in (not necessarily Legio tourneys) which usually allotted 120 minutes. I assume one of the reasons for this time limit is the fact that both sides will have a max of 1600 points each, which is a little less than the usual 1750 points, resulting in fewer models to move and consider on the tabletop. This gives each side roughly 45 minutes per round, or 7.5 minutes per turn.

However, I feel that this rule considerably limits the strategies I have at hand to build an effective list. My partner and I play Orks and Imperial Guard respectively, which all will agree are generally horde armies. This is the main strength of the codices in question. We have a lot of models to move about on the table, which takes up a considerable amount of time to move carefully without displacement or accidentally moving that extra inch or so. Couple that with coordination overhead, dice rolling, counting stuff with our fingers Very Happy we fear that we will not have enough time to go through the 6 turns most games will need to come to a emphatic conclusion.

During our playtests, we consistently clock in 3 turns at MOST at the 90 minute mark. That's quite sad, really. We've tried trimming our model count a bit (and using more expensive units), but due to budget and time constraints, we are unable to move much on this. Also, we feel that it plays against the spirit of the game to limit ourselves and play against the nature of our armies just to make our armies fit within this time limit. We also feel sorry for our opponents who may be frustrated that they only get to play 3 turns (4, if lucky) of the game.

I hope by voicing out this concern, we are able to share our difficulties and hope that perhaps some leeway can be given with regards to the time limit during K3.

Thank you!

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limp83
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:22 pm

Ditto to Ravenscream ... LOL, me and Hakim also normally took damn long (around 2 hour something..?) to finish a 1k point game... (still learning most of the rules..LOL, hand-hold-spoon-feed needed =p)

Aware that to makes thing flow as smooth, time need to be squeeze up abit... just curious, if we can't finish the game on time, what will happen then?
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Gareth



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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:42 pm

K3 rules state that after 90 minutes, the game will be stopped regardless of what is being done and whose round it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:54 pm

Well, it depends on the players. Joe and I always get full games in regardless, we finish our games before the time ends. There was even one game where we played till turn 7.

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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:04 pm

May I ask what armies you and Joe play when you finish such games in 90 minutes?
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:54 pm

Kindred: Orks and Chaos
Kindred 2: Blood Angels and Tyranids

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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:10 am

For Orks and Tyranids, did you play many units above 12 in number or was it down to Nobs and Synapse / Nidzilla / Shooty Tyranid?

Would like to know as certain horde armies are predisposed to easier decisions on movements and actions.

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:29 am

All horde style of course. We don't take too long to decide.

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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:46 am

Alright then guess that makes you both very pro.

I prefer to think carefully about what I can or should do, rushing in isn't exactly my style if I also need to complement my partners army.

I would therefore contend that since most army lists can be made in one way or another and depending on how it was made to play the time needed to come to decisions may become longer due to needed to make a lot more decisions or make those decisions count.

There is of course the huge possibility that I fail at 40k, so I bow down to you both for having far better brains then my old tired one.

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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:41 pm

I think, when it comes to Kindred, that you guys should focus on having fun as opposed to making 'make-or-break' strategic decisions.

It's nice to win a battle, but I think it's more worth it to just have lots of fun. So make the most of your 90mins (unless the TO decides to revise the timing - 120mins), and not worry too much about things like timing and finishing the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:28 pm

hi hi, had to drop in to address this. btw thanks to 'cough' for telling me about this.

Dann is spot on. kindred is not about supremacy or your average tournament feel. one of the main objectives of kindred is to make players forget the competitive feel of 40k and that is why all the major awards has nothing to do with how good you are tactically. after many or so tourneys where the winners are always the cheesiest and the most bad-ass players you can find, kindred was made as an anti-thesis to that phenomenon.

kindred is all about fun, if possible try asking some past kindred players or check out the legio website and take 5mins to read past kindred missions. 1 mission even requires you to give your partner a high-5 for some uber-loving-buff !!

in short, kindred is literally not about winning. its about having fun and enjoying the hobby.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:56 pm

With all respect, we are bringing up what we felt was a valid concern.

Having fun means different things to different people and honestly I thought that bringing up the possibility that from our experience so far that games tended to stretch past the 1 hour 30 minute marker would be considered a valid concern in that not everyone may be able to finish a game in that time frame.

Another thing that I'd like to get off my chest is that I find giving some thought to strategy and how best to maximise what options I have available when I do play what makes 40k and wargames "fun" to me.

I don't have the most cheesy army list and you can check with keh win on this, but I do think that spending time to consider what moves I can make shouldn't potentially mark me some kind of cheesy bad ass beard crazy gamer.

Kindred rules are made similar to tourney rules with strict WSIWYG, timing and FOC restrictions. I accept this as being part of what the tourney requires of the participants.

But I find it rather hypocritical if we say that on one hand we must adhere to strict rules on modeling, on how we must play for fun, and then suggest that people raising a valid concern about the time constraints of a game leading to a less then satisfying game, are by doing so, actually trying to exploit the system and make things less fun for everyone.

If saying these things makes me a "no fun" guy then so be it. I feel it is my right to at least state how I feel about this and why I agree with keh win on at least bringing this time limit issue up as a concern that may lead to less then satisfying games.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:34 pm

Gareth and Ravenscream, you have every right to voice your concerns about the game time, since you guys are participating and don't let anyone tell you otherwise Wink.

The main reason for the 90 minutes is so we can end the tourney around 4.30 or 5 pm. Usually by the start of the third game everyone's getting pretty tired from the excitement of the first 2 rounds....even us organizers. Except a few who are still gunning for the best generalship honors...cough cough usual suspect.

Tell you what, i'll look at K1 and K2 event itinerary and see if i can slot in some time. Though this will mean that the event will end later than usual. I'm not promising anything but i will crunch the numbers.

In the meantime, please help me here. Based on your test games, how many minutes should a round of doubles 1600 points be? This would be a really great input for me when planning the event schedule.

Cheers everyone Smile
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Vuel
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:46 pm

just dropping a thought here..

K1 was a 1000pts per side with a limit of 75 minutes, but that's comparing apples to oranges..so we'll put that aside..however, do note that there were no time issues raised..

K2 was a 1500pts per side (1600 if you count the free 'expendables') and again there was no issues regarding time..

the 90 minutes rule was decided with reasoning and experience, not on a whim..

Quote :
Kindred rules are made similar to tourney rules with strict WSIWYG, timing and FOC restrictions.
need to correct something here..
Kindred is not something similar to tourney rules, it is an official Hobby Tournament..
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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:32 pm

hang on hang on back up.

Chill-pill time.

No one's calling anyone 'not fun'.

the thing ya gotta understand about Kindred is that it's not a typical tourney where winning games will ultimately make you a prize winner. Kindred focuses on the Hobby (painting, sculpting) and Sportsmanship Aspects of the game.

So when I said, try to have fun, I meant don't get too caught up in the strategy aspect of the game. You could lose 2/3 games and still be the top prize winner. On the other hand, you could win all 3 games and that would only get you the Best General (which is only considered 2nd or 3rd prize in Kindred)

Which is also why timing takes a backseat here. By all means you are free to strategize, and you can aim for the win - and timing may ultimately be extended, but just be aware that Kindred is not your typical tourney.
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:04 pm

Not siding with anyone. Just throwing up my views after several days looking at the thread evolving.

To be honest, I myself think 90 minutes is too short. My 40k games usually ended in 2-3 hours coz I just think too much. But I dont think this is such a big problem in K3. Coz to me, it is all a matter of choice here.

We already knew the time limit, so we should take that into consideration during list building. What kind of list ashould we bring to K3? Horde list will take too much time moving the models. Not to mentioned, the list are not easy to play so will require longer time doing in game calculations and plannings. So hordes is definitely not the type of list to bring.

Despite knowing all this Gareth, you and my good friend Kehwin choose to play horde list. So you guys should know what to expect lah kan. My suggestion, just accept K3 as it is and try have fun as much as you can with your army.. OR.. if the TO permits, submit a new list, do one very broken list just for this event (hahaha!) coz that type of list usually can end in 90 minutes

Have fun guys Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Kindred 3: Time Concerns   Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:24 pm

Hi guys!

Well this is has certainly been an eventful thread. I thank everyone who has given their two cents on the situation, the fact that people actually bother to respond gives me some reassurance that this is a pretty well integrated community.

I thank the tournament organisers for also responding constructively and trying their best to be accommodating to my concerns. I understand that we all have families that need attending to and I appreciate the effort made to still try and reach some kind of compromise.

I am ready to declare this thread closed, I think. Very Happy
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