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Paxter
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PostSubject: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:46 am

Seems like the cc armies got hit quite hard with a nerf gun..

I could be wrong but from the time you decide to move your cc unit this happens-

- you can't fleet to charge

- when charging it's 2d6 + one re-roll if you got fleet

- opponent will snap shot back at you at full @ BS1 taking out the closest first, potentially killing one or two that was in range

- charge into combat which if you opt to charge two units at once you lose your +1A And not to mention get snap shot by two squads....

- you got defensive grenades which can give you stealth, hit first in cover, or ONE guy can opt to throw the grenade even if like everyone had a grenade only oneeee guy gets to throw one...

- Then in cc assuming I am using any of the DE cc units I better not be in the fight with terminators, cause apart from Demi klaves we can't hurt them anymore! All our pw, agonizers are ap3.

- btw that I10 free attack for jump infantry ... You only get those for models in base contact, those who are not at the start of that phase don't get that free attack.


In a weird way I am ok with this, going to max out in min raiders. And make tons of gunboats
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:36 am

Fleet lets you re-roll one or both dice of charge distance.

You should be only scared of BS1 when there are tons of shots, rapid fire at 6 with marines is not comparable to IG or Ork overwatches.

Defensive grenades gives stealth at 8" range, can't throw them but you don't get attack bonus from charge. Assault grenades are the ones you throw.

Against terminators, you other options is to shoot them with low ap or wound them a lot. Just a change of strategy to deal with them.

A free auto hit at I10 on the charge needs to have some balancing.

Nevertheless, you need to look at the whole game to see whether some armies were really nerfed. The wound allocation now gives different tactics to take advantage of, vehicles are easier to hit easier to wreck but much faster and can shoot more, different terrain rules, deployment/missions are different now etc..
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Well, that seems to be the case here..

Not to mention, unit in transports may only assault if the transports are assault vehicles e.g. land raiders, storm ravens, open-topped vehicles.

Gone are the days where marines can disembark & assault from Rhinos.

To make things much more 'interesting', units may only disembark if the transport vehicles do not move more than 6". Thus, a unit embarked in a Land Raider will have a charging threat range of 6" (LR moving) + 6" (disembarking) + 2d6" (charging) i.e. anywhere from 14" to 24".

Much of the new improvements are adapted from Warhammer Fantasy. I feel like i'll be playing futuristic fantasy games.

The Fortifications are nice options to be taken, but hardly fluffy for my Eldar army (or even Nids/DE/Tau). I don't see any problem for my Orks to use them though hehehe!!

Anyway, I know that right now, for my Eldar army, I'd have to take Eldrad + 1 Farseer to max my Fortune psy-power cuz now all my skimmers have 5+ jink save. This idea that i have of using 9 Vypers + 3 Prisms/Falcons (AP2 shots galore Twisted Evil) seems quite possible..at laaaast!!

For my BA army, I might want to rethink my option of using Dante in cc. What's the use of having I6 when his Axe Mortalis makes him strike at I1? Maybe againts units that don't have Powerfists..

DCs & DC Dredds are much more violent now that their noses can't be pulled anymore thanks to the new Rage only gives them +2A when charging!! Combined that with the new FnP can be used against almost any atcks that won't cause ID, I'd say they've become much greater assets!!

As for my BT, what can I say..Them lepak boyz in termie-suits will be having a roll all i can say hehehe...especially against GKs hehehe...
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:27 pm

I believe not being able to charge after coming out from reserves, outflank and infiltrate would suffice to indicate everyone's charging on turn two rather than turn one. Boosts shooting I guess. On a side note I believe you can never move jump infantry more than 6" if the vehicle did not move since the rules the 6" disembarkation suggests all extra movement is used for it.

Dante's power weapon is named and so it is considered an "unusual power weapon" like nemesis force weapons, AP3.

Walkers no longer have the ability to lock units in combat if they can't hurt it, however slight it is, if the assaulted unit survives, it can fail morale check purposely and fallback, putting dreds in the killzone.

The "OH MAH GAWD, 2+ Armour units are gonna rule the game" is probably quite true, mostly against people using AP3 power weapons. Like I said, AP1/2 shooting weapons and massive wounding still kill terminators, they are still T4.

There's some funky powers in the rulebook that are quite cheesy if you know how to exploit it. I'm betting on these powers to make my tyranids tougher and more annoying.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:10 pm

agreeing with Jake here..
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:57 pm

AznJake wrote:
I believe not being able to charge after coming out from reserves, outflank and infiltrate would suffice to indicate everyone's charging on turn two rather than turn one.

this sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:16 pm

I noticed how fragile vehicles are really now, aside from getting cover saves and being a flyer (stormravens/stormtalons).
Hull Points can be very easily deducted by high strength, anti-vehicle weapons.

This is especially a real problem for AV10 to even AV12 vehicles. Tanks suffer the most.
For an example, 3 railgun shots at a rhino/razorback will auto-wreck it with 3 auto -glances, it's just a matter of whether it explodes or not, which is highly possible with AP1 now as you need a 4+ to explode with penetrating hits, the vehicle damage table will never roll shaken and rarely stunned.

But flying and super fast armies will still be the norm to see and the approach to 6th ed. Speed is the new black for 40K it seems. But with more things to remember, will the game be really much faster as you have to roll alot of different things now?

It almost seems like GW indirectly wants everyone to field allies to get flyers and have tyranid players buy aegis defence lines.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:44 am

I'd have to disagree with your take on Dante's melee weapon.

Axe Mortalis, though is a named weapon, is described in the BA codex as only "a mastercrafted power weapon."

An unusual power weapon as described in the BRB pg 61 refer to "power weapons that have one or more unique rules."

Apart from being mastercrafted, the Axe Mortalis doesn't have any unique rules about it. Mastercrafted is not unique since it is just one of the USRs.

A few examples of unusual power weapons with unique rules/abilites would be:
1. BT Emperor's Champion's Black Sword - +2S Power Weapon
2. SM's Relic Blade - +2S Power Weapon
3. SW's Frost Blade - +1S Power Weapon
4. SW's Wolf's Claws - Re-roll to hit/to wound rolls

Notice the bizarre difference these weapons have compared to Axe Mortalis?

Thus, in summary, what is Dante's Axe Mortalis? It is just actually a power weapon, albeit a mastercrafted one (again i stress, mastercrafted is a USR, not a unique rule). And since it is an axe in all appearance & name, it follows the rules of a power axe.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:00 am

I'd think the Axe Mortalis still follows its own rules, and is not a Power Axe. After all, it is 'named'. Like the Deliverer!

Din, you analyse too much dy...


in fact i think all PWs from 5th ed all follow their own rules. And we'll only be getting all those funky power weapons with the new codexes.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:57 am

Well, i don't know about you guys, but when i play, i would want to play according to the rules, not just by lumping everything together just to make it easier.

Its not a matter of analyzing things too much, its a matter of knowing what is right & what is wrong. Analyzing is part of critical thinking, which i would definitely encourage my students/everybody else to do.

Things to consider: Nowhere does it states it the BRB that named weapons are automatically considered as unusual power weapons.

Its very unfortunate that the latest BA FAQ didn't mention it, but the closest similar reference that I can relate to is in the latest CSM FAQ regarding Kharn's Gorechild which I quote "..is treated as a power axe...".

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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:21 am

I'm with Din here.. not because he is my brother. But coz he talk sense here.

What is Axe Mostalis? --> It is a power axe. A master crafted one.
Other than that, what does it do? --> nothing.

Let's have a look at 2 named weapons of the CSM.
Gorechiled --> power axe. S+2D6 against vehicles
Manreaper --> power axe. A+D6. Force weapon

Both are much more special than Axe Mortalis, but still has to follow Power Axe rules. Si why not Axe Mortalis? simply because it is a named weapons? What is the named weapons term stands for aniway? (Sorry I haven't read the rulebook Smile )
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:32 am

I haven't been able to reply cause I'm doin some errands now, but I took a closer look.

Under the power weapons, it says if the power weapon does not have any additional rules, follow the rules stated below.

By raw, master crafted could mean an additional special rule to the weapon. Under unusual power weapons, any power weapons with additional rules are ap3.

What I'm more concern is whether Dante having such a initiative is made redundant if it had a power axe, the only benefit to having such initiative is just tests and sweeping advance. Was he intended to hit at initiative one by gw?
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:43 am

Even Kharn also hitting at initiative one now. I don't think is related. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:14 pm

the only thing that makes axe mortalis an axe is the model and the name, otherwise the rules state it's a master-crafted power weapon.


well let's look at the other BA named weapon that seems a little ambiguous - the Glaive Encarmine - which is 'a two-handed master-crafted power weapon.' Now from the models, some are axes, some are huge swords... should they all follow individual power weapon rules just cuz some of them are axes? Then does the matter become model-specific? I highly doubt so.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:24 pm

hahaha.. logan grimnar will be funny.. use as a single handed counts as frost axe/ 2 handed power fist.. still strike last.. so now it just powerfist la.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:31 pm

Quote :
the only thing that makes axe mortalis an axe is the model and the name, otherwise the rules state it's a master-crafted power weapon.
Well.. what about Manreaper? Unlike Axe Mortalis.. Manreaper is definitely not an axe, it has the look af Glaive Encarmine to me Smile

Come on guys.. it is too obvious as it is. The Fact is, my Kharne now strikes at I1, Logan I1 (yup.. this one is funny, why bother with Frost Axe now Laughing), and so will be Dante.

Seriously, I think GW really messed up at Power Axe. If I were the designer, I would make it -2 Initiative to offset the +1S and AP instead of Unwieldy.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:43 pm

Dann: Yes it is! Now it is clearly stated power weapon is whatever your model is being equipped with. If your model is holding a sword, it follows power sword rules. If it is holding an axe, it'll use power axe rules. If it is holding a spear, then it'll follow the power lance rules.

Aznjake: You shouldn't lump together USRs with unique abilities as stated under the Unusual Power Weapons entry.

Mastercrafted is a USR, just like Unwieldy, Two-handed, Specialist Weapon...etc...

Unique abilities are the various extra whacky stuffs that the weapons have such +1S/+2S, +1A/+2A/+D6A, +2I, causing instant death, forcing initiative/toughness/Ld tests...etc..etc..

Do you see what I'm saying here?


I'd also like to bring another point in my favor here: BA spc upgraded character Lemartes who is also wielding a 'named' weapon called The Blood Crozius.

What is The Blood Crozius? According to the BA codex, it is just a mere mastercrafted power weapon.

So, according to your arguement Aznjake & Dann, it should be just another unusual power weapon with AP3 right?

WRONG!!

The new FAQ states that, I quote: "The Blood Crozius is a mastercrafted power maul." i.e. just like any other power mauls it'll get +2S, AP4, Concussive as well as being mastercrafted.

Like i've mentioned in my previous, unfortunately, the new BA FAQ didn't mention anything about Dante's Axe Mortalis. BUT, following the same logic as the FAQ concerning Lemartes' Blood Crozius, the Axe Mortalis should be a mastercrafted power axe & should not be considered as an unusual power weapon.


Last edited by CikguDin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:55 pm

Well i agree with the cikgu... nanti kena denda!

His argument does make sense, if he was right, then i wont be so peeved out that all the de characters weapons are now at best AP3. Razz

Just bcs its named it does not make it unique. It has to actually state in the gear rules that say it is a powerweapon at AP2 bla bla bla... If its just master crafted with a name its still a power weapon with mastercraft rule.



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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:26 pm

Interesting, I like where this is going, hahah. For the record I'm just showing how words are imperfect methods to make things clear even though it can be simply corrected, I'm not on the BA side trust me, I'm finding ways to defeat them myself but rules are rules and discussing vague rules are fun.

Fair enough, but then I ask why under the Power Weapons section, states if the weapons do not have addtional "special rules"? What does this imply? Universal Special Rules or other kind of specials rules?
Unique Rules, what do they include, are they the things you listed found anywhere written in the book or it's just your personal interpretation, just like our interpretation of the words?

Also, Let's look the other way why wasn't Dante's Axe Mortalis FAQed like Blood Crozius? FYI, there's another possibility why it was FAQed, Lemartes is a Chaplain, all chaplains hold Power Mauls. It could just mean Lemartes holds one that's master-crafted. That's another logic to follow, perhaps.

Why do you think that should be the primary confirmation on it being precedent for Axe Motarlis too?
Wasn't it obvious and simple for GW to FAQ it to being a Master-Crafted Power Axe?

Lastly, no I'm not wrong, and neither is your answer, but we're not totally right either. I sense discomfort in your words, Din. We're just discussing the rules and debating. When the time comes to roll the dice, I would really just leave it to the BA player as to what he thinks Axe Mortalis is.

[Edit] What I don't like about the rules for Power Weapons now is because they the players to identify what they are instead of just FAQing every single weapon. Like people said, it let's people convert their power weapons to however they like since we just need to look at what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:36 pm

Goo point Jake, it's interesting how some weapons are FAQed, and some aren't. Even though, it's just a simple matter of typing a sentence.

Manreaper, Gorechild, even Logan's weapon had a section in the FAQ stating exactly how 6th ed affected them, but not Axe Mortalis, Glaive Encarmine... So is it safe to assume that they are unaffected?
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:38 pm

As of today, they are affected if you want them to be. It really comes down whether your opponent wants to argue with you when you play.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:43 pm

AznJake wrote:
As of today, they are affected if you want them to be. It really comes down whether your opponent wants to argue with you when you play.

that's true... i think it's gonna be interesting cuz i'll be the only frikkin' player with Power Spears... -.-;
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:40 pm

dann.toh wrote:
... i'll be the only frikkin' player with Power Spears... -.-;
and while you're playing them, don't forget these magic words: "Hit me baby one more time" Laughing

by the way, both the RAW and RAI sides are raising good points here..
until GW releases a proper explanation/FAQ, just discuss with your opponents first before playing a game and play with that consensus..
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:43 pm

a roll a die of DOOOM! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:40 pm

Well for me I am not much a rule freak, normally thru out a game I tend to just go with the flow, unless it starts to get unreasonable, then I step in.

Till they come out with a proper FAQ maybe just let the other guy know about gear rules you want to make clear while setting up the pre game procedures A gentleman agreement of sorts, personally I hate to get into a debate about rules during the game.
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