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CikguDin
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:19 pm

Poor Dann's beautifully kustom power spears golden boys...

1st turn combat, +1S AP3 two-handed weapon.

2nd turn combat, normal S AP4 two-handed weapon.

Kesian betul Laughing Laughing Laughing !!
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lexiss



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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:22 pm

Eh since we are talking about power weapon here, mind if I chip in one quick question??

In most of the codex wargear section, we can choose "power weapon", so the stat of the power weapon we choose will be solely based on the appearance of the "power weapon" ?? So I can give the guy an axe and claim it as power axe and enjoy the +1 str bonus ??
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AznJake
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Yes, and enjoy initiative 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:47 pm

AznJake wrote:
Yes, and enjoy initiative 1.

I see. Doesnt matter, character/IC wont die as easy as they used to in 5th now. Khorne Lord wield power weapon with daemonic steed, that's str 6, not bad I guess Laughing
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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:00 pm

eh guys, look at the entry of 'power weapons'... not the 'Unusual Power Weapons' part...

POWER WEAPONS

Types Of Power Weapons

2nd paragraph:
"If a model's wargear says is has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

AXE MORTALIS, GLAIVE ENCARMINE ALL HAVE THEIR SPECIAL RULES!!!
SO I DON'T NEED TO LOOK AT THE MODELS!!!
I JUST LOOK AT THEIR OWN DAMN RULES!!!
DANG YOU MOOTERS! L2R!!!!!!!


edit:
as for all you dudes whose weapons kena FAQed... nyeh! nyeh! nyeh! nyeh!
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:40 pm

I am curious, from the rule book, nemesis weapons are ap3, however under the rule for the daemonhammer it states it follows the rules for thunderhammer. The question is this, is the daemonhammer now ap2 or 3?
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:52 pm

dann.toh wrote:
eh guys, look at the entry of 'power weapons'... not the 'Unusual Power Weapons' part...

POWER WEAPONS

Types Of Power Weapons

2nd paragraph:
"If a model's wargear says is has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

AXE MORTALIS, GLAIVE ENCARMINE ALL HAVE THEIR SPECIAL RULES!!!
SO I DON'T NEED TO LOOK AT THE MODELS!!!
I JUST LOOK AT THEIR OWN DAMN RULES!!!
DANG YOU MOOTERS! L2R!!!!!!!


edit:
as for all you dudes whose weapons kena FAQed... nyeh! nyeh! nyeh! nyeh!


Uhhh dude, did you read my posts and Din's closer? It's almost like didn't read(lol).

Like what Din and I said, I can't be 100% sure that the "special rules" mentioned there are any kind of rules found in the codex, ie. the Blood Crozius was still FAQed, but also because we do not know what unique rules imply. There's no absolute confirmation.

If there are additional special rules for a power weapon, this leads us to read "unusual power weapons" then. If we don't, then what's the AP for that disputed weapon?

You still need to look at the models when it only says power weapons just to be clear.

-----------------------

The nemesis daemon hammer is self-correcting, after reading the FAQ, all are indeed unusual force weapons. But because the hammer is used as a thunderhammer, we can safely presume it was insta-gibbing AP3(Unusual force weapon) but as Codex > Rulebook, the weapon is now a insta-gibbing AP2, x2 STR, concussive and unwieldy.

Short version
Nemesis Daemon Hammer = Unusual Force Weapon (FAQ) + Thunderhammer(Codex), only conflicting rule is AP2 and AP3. Logic = Choose AP2.

There's room for Rational thinking you know, although some require evidence/research than just rational thinking.

If my post seems confusing, here's someone from the internet that probably explained better than me.



Actually, I just read over this faq again. Hammers and doomfists are AP2... You are just flat out wrong, GW hasn't errated the daemonhammer to have thunderhammer rules because it was already in the GK book!

FAQed lines:

Page 54 – Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.
Change the first sentence to read “Unless otherwise stated, all Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

The bold part is pretty important here. All the other nemesis weaponry just has lines/stats added to it (without it stating they are something different to force weapons).

For example:

Nemesis force halberd

Fluff text here. Nemesis halberds are two-handed weapons. In addition, the wielder of a Nemesis halberd strikes at +2 initiative.

--> conclusion: unusual force weapon with added initiative benefit.

Nemesis warding stave

Fluff text here. A model wielding a Nemesis warding stave has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused in close combat.

--> conclusion: Unusual force weapon with added advantage of 2+ save in CC.

Both these weapons don't mention them following any specific weapon rules SO: “Unless otherwise stated, all Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

However:

Nemesis Daemon Hammer:

Fluff text here. A Nemesis Daemo hammer uses the rules for thunder hammers (see the warhammer 40k rulebook). Note that a dreadknight armed with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer strikes in normal initiative order rather then at initiative 1.

--> conclusion: this is a thunderhammer that has the forceweapon insta-gib rule added to it.

Same deal for the Nemesis doomfists. It SPECIFICALY states you need to use the rules for a dreadnough CCW, just like the daemonhammer says you need to use the rules for thunderhammers.

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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:11 am

Obviously everyone is OVER-READING and OVER-ANALYSING! Follow my logic for a moment...


Now it pretty much says that if you don't have a special rule, you refer to the rules below. Which comes with all the useless PWs like Mace and Spears and so on. So if you have a special rule, don't look at the table.

Example: So Agonisers have their own special rules. They always wound on 4+. So do Huskblades, Glaive Encarmine, Axe Mortalis, Blood Crozius, Gorechild, Manreaper, Nemesis Weapons, Warscythes, Rod of Covenants, and so on... (I'll get to those FAQed weapons in a bit)

That's it. So ALL weapons that have special rules fall under this category. So NONE of them should fall under those lousy Power Weapons GW created. We clear? Good.

Now, unusual power weapons just says that if you have a weapon that has a special rule, it is just AP3. Ta-daaaaaa~~~!



NOW ONTO THE FAQs!
Sorry la, if your character's PW got FAQed, then it got FAQed lorrr...
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:41 am

Warscythes and rod of covenant are faqed weapons. Fyi.

No we're not analysing too much, it's a debate and it's when you truly try to focus what the rules are what they really are. You did not provide logic over your conclusion. You did not even do the simplest task of explaining what are really special rules mentioned and assume they are the rules you mentioned.

The last sentence you wrote pretty much tells people to "it's like that" or "deal with it" is not really a good argument to support your argument. You couldn't provide a valid reason as to why they faqed the weapons and some weren't. As oppose to Din and I had.

[Edit] Things I like you to address more clearly, if you are able to convince me, what special rules are, then I'll agree with you.
Quote :
So if you have a special rule, don't look at the table.
What are special rules? What are unique rules?

Quote :
So Agonisers have their own special rules
They have special rules, but are precedent for those less clear ones (Axe Mortalis)?

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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:57 am

@Dann :
Seems like you are the one that is over analysing the thing bro..
It is a very simple thing. What is so difficult about Axe Mortalis?
It is a master crafted power weapon that LOOKS LIKE AN AXE and named so.

Unlike Gorechild and Manreaper that has complicated rules, Axe Mortalis is so simple and self explainatory that GW DON'T EVEN BOTHER to FAQ the damn thing.
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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:14 am

Sigh...

Let's start from the top (again). Let me break down what each section of the Power Weapons entry says.

1. Power Weapons. Does your character's/unit's Power Weapon have a special rule? If no, please refer to 6th ed's new catalogue of Power Weapons. (These especially applies to characters who can buy Power Weapons for 15pts, giving them more options for their buck. For example, the Autrach can now buy a Power Spear if he wants, giving him +1S on the turn he charges.)

2. Unusual Power Weapons. So your character's/unit's Power Weapons have special rules. Whatever they are, they are AP3. (So, everything that I have listed falls under this section. Agonisers, Huskblades, etc, etc, etc)

3. If your character's weapon got FAQed, then it's beyond me why they would FAQ it.



Following the natural order of the rules and written word, Axe Mortalis, Glaive Encarmine, Huskblades, Agonisers and many others have stopped at Point 2.

So Gorechild, Manreaper, and so on have been FAQed, which are the few that made it past Point 2 and on to Point 3. For better or worse, it depends on the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:36 am

Additional point - did anyone realise what the list of power weapons was for? It's meant to fluff up regular characters like autrachs, sergeants, exarchs, etc, (Those who have Power Weapons with absolutely NO special rules) so that they get a weapon that's better than just AP3.

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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:04 am

sorry but i find this topic getting pretty funny...

you got
1. teacher
1. copywriter
1. lawyer

put them in a forum.

you get ___________
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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:07 am

Yeah, three aspects of the written word...

Masters of Education.
Masters of Communication.
Masters of Interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:09 am

@Dann : You are so adamant on this, no points arguing. Dont want to "bermasam muka" (what is that in English?) with a good old friend
@Legio Officers : I hope you guys can come out with a FAQ on this. Whatevet it is, I'll happily abide by your decision Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:14 am

well by the looks of things.. most IC will be striking last. More confusion to be resolve. I notice that PF & Frost Blade & Axe is the same point. That for SW what about the other. What the use of taking axe over power fist. Is there any special rules for PF that makes it different from PAxe.
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Paxter
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:15 am

no la i think its good to debate things, just avoid getting nerd agro over the game. Its a new set of rules and with that a lot of grey areas.

If you really really want to get to the bottom of it send GW a mail asking the rule question. I did that before they got back to me within a week

Just to point out i think all 3 of you have their points, although this can easily solved with the decision should be made between players prior to the game or just roll a dice (outside of competitive gaming a.e tournament) if its a tournament then the tournament org will need to publish their own FAQ.

Its not overly game breaking so either way for me i fight dann can follow his rule fight jake follow his...

i just wanna play! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:20 am

I second Pax comment
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:35 am

AznJake wrote:

[Edit] Things I like you to address more clearly, if you are able to convince me, what special rules are, then I'll agree with you.
Quote :
So if you have a special rule, don't look at the table.
What are special rules? What are unique rules?



Why unique rules? Special rules OF ANY SORT.


Any rule.
Every rule.
Whatever rule.
If it's a Power Weapon with a rule, don't follow the table.

Again, don't think about special characters or special wargear, just think about the Regular Joe Sergeants and Regular Joe Commanders. Those who essentially buy 'Power Weapons'.



Look, I'm not going on and on just to be devil's advocate. I'm only concerned no one's considered that GW wants to make the game more interesting for players with regular commanders/units, hence wanted to make a list that let's them customize their units to be so.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:29 am

I'm going into something else instead.. Something obviously written but someone might overlook this so better set things straight.

On the Jump Infantries!
Jump Infantry movement have to choose when to use their jump pack. They cannot use the jump packs twice in a single turn.
i. if use jumpacks in movement phase --> cannot use jumpack when Charging so they dont get to reroll charging distance (unless they have fleet like my RG Laughing) and NO HAMMER OF WRATH
ii. if move normally in movement phase --> can use Jump Pack when Charging so may reroll charging distance and GAIN HAMMER OF WRATH!

2ndly is for Heavy Weapon model (i.e.: Missile guy in Tact Squad)
Before moving the Tact Squad, we can now declare that the Missile Guy will remain stationary. That guy will be able to shoot his Heavy Weapon without penalty to BS while his crew move into rapid fire position. Some need to stay back though to retain unit coherency.

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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:51 am

LordAK wrote:
I'm going into something else instead.. Something obviously written but someone might overlook this so better set things straight.

On the Jump Infantries!
Jump Infantry movement have to choose when to use their jump pack. They cannot use the jump packs twice in a single turn.
i. if use jumpacks in movement phase --> cannot use jumpack when Charging so they dont get to reroll charging distance (unless they have fleet like my RG Laughing) and NO HAMMER OF WRATH
ii. if move normally in movement phase --> can use Jump Pack when Charging so may reroll charging distance and GAIN HAMMER OF WRATH!

2ndly is for Heavy Weapon model (i.e.: Missile guy in Tact Squad)
Before moving the Tact Squad, we can now declare that the Missile Guy will remain stationary. That guy will be able to shoot his Heavy Weapon without penalty to BS while his crew move into rapid fire position. Some need to stay back though to retain unit coherency.



!!!!!!
Holy hell, now that's different!
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:51 am

LordAK wrote:
I'm going into something else instead.. Something obviously written but someone might overlook this so better set things straight.

On the Jump Infantries!
Jump Infantry movement have to choose when to use their jump pack. They cannot use the jump packs twice in a single turn.
i. if use jumpacks in movement phase --> cannot use jumpack when Charging so they dont get to reroll charging distance (unless they have fleet like my RG Laughing) and NO HAMMER OF WRATH
ii. if move normally in movement phase --> can use Jump Pack when Charging so may reroll charging distance and GAIN HAMMER OF WRATH!

2ndly is for Heavy Weapon model (i.e.: Missile guy in Tact Squad)
Before moving the Tact Squad, we can now declare that the Missile Guy will remain stationary. That guy will be able to shoot his Heavy Weapon without penalty to BS while his crew move into rapid fire position. Some need to stay back though to retain unit coherency.


To add that up that people might tend to forget,

Always roll differently for your sergeant/captain/justicar/champion/Solarite/exarch/whatever-your-unit leader-is-called and IC in shooting & assault phase as you can select your target model upon a roll to hit of 6s (can even pick those not in LOS) !! That's how you deliver that powerfist/melta to your hatred model / IC !! Albeit he can still dodge it with Look Out Sir, but still a chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:01 am

urm so if i am using a hellion

does that mean when i charge using jump packs its 2d6 +2 rerolls? one for fleet one for charging??

and if

i do move 12 in movement i still can charge 2d6 +1 reroll but with out the funky hammer of wrath thinggie? Cause i prob skip the hammer of wrath for 20 poison shots Very Happy
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dann.toh
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:10 am

i guess shooty jump packers want the versatility n distance.

Whereas assaulty jump packers want the devastating charge.

This is a nice improvement to the rules!
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PostSubject: Re: Let me get this right...   Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:24 am

AK, your point about the Marine missile launcher dude - is that only for Space Marines, or does that apply to everyone?

Don't remember reading that in the book
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