would you take a contemptor or a venerable dread?

I've recently got to thinking, a venerable dread and a mortis contemptor dread has similar point costs. Giving them similar layouts (I.e. the kheres assault cannon for the contemptor and the assault cannon or plasma cannon for the venerable dread) would be that same amount of points.

Which would be better? the 12 shots from the contemptor or the 4 shots plus str10 from the venerable dread?

alternatively 2 mortis contemptor dreadnoughts is the same price as 3 ordinary dreadnoughts with assault cannons and DCCW.

*alittlemathhammering*
I'm not sure if I'm doing this right but here goes

assuming the most common weapon that is faced by any tank in the current situations are missile launchers from marines.

over the course of a full 6 turn game there would be 24 shots(full squad of devestator without signum) fired at the dreads. We also assume that there is no cover available for the machines of war.

the marines will hit 15.84 times with the BS of 4

my calculations bring me to this

mortis contemptor dreadnought

to damage = 33% / 5.2272 hits

after the 5+ save

3.449952 hits will penetrate or glance

considering that it is a 50/50 percent it will glance or pen

1.725 hits will glance and 1.725 hits will pend

there is a 4.79% that the contemptor will be wrecked or exploded after 24 missiles. 14.37% that it would be affected in any way

venerable dreadnought

to damage = 50% / 7.92 hits

7.92 hits will penetrate or glance

considering there is a 33/66 percent it will glance or pen

1.32 hits will glance and 6.6 hits will pend

assuming that the only reason you would re-roll on the damage chart is a wrecked or explode result

0.1437 glancing hits would wreck or destroy the vehicle

0.71874 penetrating shots will wreck or destroy the vehicle

there is a 3.59% the dreadnought would be wrecked or destroyed but 22.9167% that the dreadnought would be affected in any way.

conclusion
the survivability of these two dreadnoughts are very much similar. The output however is different

contemptor has 12 str 6 ap4 rending (kheres assault cannon) and str 7 for cc

venerable has 4 str 6 ap4 rending (assault cannon) or one str 7 ap2 blast (plasma cannon) and str 10 for CC

which would be a better option in your opinions?

right i totally skipped everything after the 5th line.

I would just go with 'what looks good in your army, and what feels like a good support to your current army build.'


EDIT:
sorry if i sound a little unenthusiastic here, but the post is just a question of numbers (snore) between two very similar models. If it was a question between a Land Raider vs some crazed assault squad in a Drop Pod, then maybe the conversation would be more interesting.

It doesn't help that we have no idea of your army composition or synergy. It's not always a question of how much damage a model can dish out, but also how it works in accordance with the other units in your army.

Great, now I sound preachy...

hahhaa.. same as Dann, i didn't even bother reading further after the 1st line.

math-hammering is all theoretical which i know for the fact will not apply to my dice rolls. lolz

so just enjoy the game, and play your best at any scenarios get thrown at you.

I like the look of Vendread better than Contemptor. But Contemptor is unique! Just how many times have you ever saw any Contemptor on table? me myself is NEVER!! (yet lah)

So if you fancy one, dont bother with mathammering. Order one!!

Lol. Got confused after reading a few lines. But I'd say go for the Contemptor, just because it's a cool model and you can do it. But if I were you, I'd get both.

I was just curious if people would prefer the survivability as opposed to more power.. but i think in the end its the same..

I think the resilience do count. As it ensures that you still have a unit on the table and your opponent has to dedicate time and fire power to take it down.

yup, good example are the necrons.

i remember BoLS last time got an article on this.
what makes a unit powerful?
damage output vs staying power.
the ans is the staying power.
take a look at the latest deathstar article from BoLS.
they explain the term deathstar come about and how it applies to our 40k game.

Too much info. Without any math-hammering, i would personally get the ven dreads. I think the contemptors look like eggs.

i would go for the contemptor.. fact being that
1) he fire more shots
2) he has a 5+ save compared to vendred where you reroll for the damage.. what the point.. you still take damage and get shaken.. still cant shoot.
3) the contemptor is still a walker n still roll 2D6 on armor pen. Againt creature they still dont get armor save.

dif2find wrote:

3) the contemptor is still a walker n still roll 2D6 on armor pen.

How can the Contemptor do that?

In my knowledge he can only do that if he has a chainfist, I'm not sure if there's an option for that.

Re-rolling damage result is important if the venerable dreadnought is geared to kill things in combat like deep-striking it with a drop pod.

If you get immobilised, you will do nothing for the rest of the game.

I agree that looks/aesthetics is a main factor when choosing a model to play, however it is more of a casual player's view on things. There's just times when people ask about the technical stuff, they want the technical stuff.

I would say it is highly dependent on what the model's battle role in the whole army. The main differences between the two are

1. The Contemptor can't take a drop pod as a dedicated transport, but I guess you would argue against this by the fact it can ride someone else's drop pod.
2. The Contemptor is a heavy support choice.

Their CC capabilities can't be compared because this type of contemptor is much more shooty than being assaulty, although this may be an important factor that you would choice either because of it.

In terms of ranged firepower, the contemptor of course wins because the kheres assault cannon is only slightly more expensive than the assault cannon and you can take two. In fact, you can take two of anything, even multi-meltas. However, the maximum range for the weapon is 24", more than enough for any anti-vehicle weapons to aim at you, even meltaguns.

Survivability is similar, although AV13 means missile launchers are less effective but not against those dark lances, once you fail that invulnerable save, any shaken result will make the contemptor a walking egg. But for the ven. dreadnought, it's still a box of death.

Conclusively, I say the contemptor wins if it is compared for ranged purpose. Personally, I'd say the glaring problem with CC for dreadnoughts is, they only have two attacks base, forget about moving vehicles.

@jake the costing for a contemptor and a venerable dread with assault cannons are exactly the same. Furthermore 24" I think is enough because increasing the range would make it quite gay . If the person is shooting lance at the contemptor, its ability to save still means that there are less shots hurting it compared to the ven dread

@yip I do agree they look like eggs but I have a pet project in mind that I want to use as a count as contemptor. This one does not look like an egg I promise.

after the math hammer, the venerable dread is only more survivable if it gets hit by a wreck or explode result. Otherwise the contemptor is much more survivable.

Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall,
rolls 5+... SAVE!!!
All the King's horses and all the King's men,
Were shot to pieces by Humpty Dumpty's ASSAULT CANNONS!!!

i thought that all walker n monsters roll 2D6 when i comes to AV pen roll. I may be mistaken.

dif2find wrote:

i thought that all walker n monsters roll 2D6 when i comes to AV pen roll. I may be mistaken.

That only applies to monstrous creatures or walkers with chainfists.

do walkers with chainfists hit at initiative 1?

It's the same as their power fist, they hit at their usual initiative. Is it just me or nobody reads the rule book?

chilliaddict wrote:

@jake the costing for a contemptor and a venerable dread with assault cannons are exactly the same. Furthermore 24" I think is enough because increasing the range would make it quite gay . If the person is shooting lance at the contemptor, its ability to save still means that there are less shots hurting it compared to the ven dread

You do realise you have to take into account although the Contemptor has two kheres assault cannons whilst the Ven. dreadnought can be upgraded with a assault cannon but still have his DCCW. One has better ranged capabilities, the other has a better close combat capability.

I'm not advocating for the assault cannon's range to be increased, I'm just saying what disadvantage it entails because in that range. Like I said, you can't completely compare them with each other because their role differ. You may have originally used the Ven. dreadnought as a shooting platform but that does not mean that is its only purpose.

Also 5+ Invulnerable, mathhammer is mathhammer --> How many times has 5++ saved you? .
The true problem is not about surviving (AV13), the problem is getting glanced, once glance means you can't shoot if the die rolled was 1~3, opponents are satisfied enough if that happens.

Do note, the Mortis Pattern has another rule. AA Mount special rule = It's suppose to be shooting aircrafts in Apoc. or rumoured flyer rules in 6th ed, suggests that it should out of LOS from things on ground but still get a clear shot on things flying.

@jake 5++ has saved me tons of times. its my 2+ saves that fails me all the time. That being said, I did mention that the mortis dread only has str 7 while the ven dread still maintains his str10..

Alvin K wrote:

It's the same as their power fist, they hit at their usual initiative. Is it just me or nobody reads the rule book?

we do read the rule book.. but we have an interactive rule book in this forum also what... = alvin interactive rulebook...hahahaha...

@Marcus, hmm.. strange, that's not what my genestealers told me when they ate your Carcharodon Termies

Beli saja.. paint.. and take home the Golden Kriss title

LordAK wrote:

Beli saja.. paint.. and take home the Golden Kriss title

beli saja... cut it up... make it into an abandoned relic diorama... paint... and take home the Golden Kris title.

.. do it!!